Episode 26

Allies Aren’t Optional: Shaun Proulx on Empathy, Labels & Liberation

9 26

Allies Aren’t Optional: Shaun Proulx on Empathy, Labels & Liberation

Show Notes

This episode is a love letter and a wake-up call.

💥 What We Talk About:

  • The cost of silence: bullying, suicide, and shame
  • What real allyship looks like (hint: it ain’t waving a rainbow flag once a year)
  • Breaking boxes, dismantling labels, and why sameness is deadly
  • The trauma of growing up queer in a heteronormative world
  • Why empathy should be taught like math
  • How toxic masculinity stunts us all—and what to do about it

🔗 How to Connect with Shaun Proulx: Website: shaunproulx.ca

Instagram: @shaunproulx

Twitter/X: @shaunproulx

📞 If You’re in Crisis: If you're in North America, text 988 for free, 24/7 support.

Elsewhere? Please reach out to your local suicide prevention or mental health hotline. #YouMatter.

💬 Subscribe, rate, and share if this episode moved you. It could be the lifeline someone else didn’t know they needed. #ConverSAVEtions

Bio

Shaun Proulx is a dynamic Canadian media entrepreneur, speaker, author, and broadcaster known for his uplifting and empowering approach to storytelling. He's the host of The Shaun Proulx Show on SiriusXM's Canada Talks (Channel 167), where he engages in smart, edgy, and inspiring conversations with celebrities, newsmakers, and thought leaders, focusing on themes of personal empowerment and happiness

In 2002, Proulx launched TheGayGuideNetwork.com (GGN), Canada's first digital magazine for the LGBT community. GGN offers high-vibe conversations about true personal empowerment and being authentically fabulous, making it a preferred choice for Canadian advertisers aiming to achieve positive brand integration

Proulx's media company, Shaun Proulx Media (SPM), is dedicated to producing content based on the belief that anyone can be, do, and have anything. SPM connects brands with tastemakers using bespoke strategies on leading-edge new media platforms

Beyond his media ventures, Proulx is a keynote speaker and coach, passionate about helping others live well and by their own rules. His personal journey includes publicly disclosing his HIV-positive status in 2005, and he has been an advocate for living authentically and embracing one's truth

Proulx's work has earned him recognition in various fields, including producing the documentary DecAIDS – Anything Is Possible, which won "Best Social Documentary" at WorldFest and "Best Full-Length Feature" at the New York AIDS Film Festival in 2007

Links & Socials

shaunproulxmedia.com

SUBSTACK: https://shaunproulx.substack.com.

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X formerly Twitter :: Shaun Proulx / ShaunProulxShow

Facebook :: OfficialShaunProulx

Instagram :: ShaunProulxMediaInc

LinkedIN :: Shaun Proulx

Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All website

©2025-2018 Elaine Lindsay SZF42.com All rights reserved.

https://suicide-zen-forgiveness.captivate.fm/episode/allies-arent-optional-shaun-proulx-on-empathy-labels-liberation

Elaine Lindsay

Explicit

Transcript
Voiceover:

When moving forward seems too much.

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:

) Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Suicide, Zen forgiveness,

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:

shattering, stigma, igniting Hope.

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:

I'm Elaine, and my mission is

to end the silence, the stigma,

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the shame surrounding suicide.

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We talk about the hard stuff

because asking for help should

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be as easy as ordering a coffee.

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Here we share real stories from

those who lost someone survived

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an attempt live with ideation or

battle mental health challenges.

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Why?

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Because sharing your burden, lightens

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the load

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please note suicide, Zen forgiveness.

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The podcast is for education only.

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Some of the subject matter could be

triggering for those who are either

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grieving or having mental health problems.

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If you are in North America, you

can text 9 88 for immediate support.

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If you're elsewhere, please

reach out to your local suicide.

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Or mental health service, you matter.

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My aim is to normalize the

conversation so you feel safe

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enough to speak up to ask for help.

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So now let's start the show.

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Hello there.

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Shaun Proulx: Hey, how are you?

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I'm

great, and it is awesome to be back.

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Shaun Proulx: That

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opening is so beautiful.

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I have a lump in my throat.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, thank you.

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We'll take one second, . Shaun

Proulx my guest he just stopped me

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in my tracks and we all know it's

hard to shut me up, so there you go.

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The beginning of that

intro is a song I wrote.

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Shaun Proulx: Oh, you wrote it?

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I did.

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Shaun Proulx: It's beautiful and

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Not the music words.

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Because I fit all the

categories here, right?

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Which is why I do this.

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And it's relatively new that

we've put it in the intro.

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But I'm going to do a show

pretty soon where I'll talk

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about the writing of that song.

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Shaun Proulx: It's such

good work that you do.

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Elaine,

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

thank you so much.

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It's an ode to my friend Andrea.

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Who I lost at 16 and sadly the other

five people I lost by the time I was 30.

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It is.

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So prevalent in our age that

we lose people and that people,

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even young kids get bullied.

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They have issues with other

people who don't understand them.

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People who are fearful, people who

are, I'm gonna say miseducated.

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Because it's not a lack of education,

it's a lack of the proper education.

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That all aside, the reason I asked Shaun

to join me is because this is June.

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June is Men's Mental Health

Month, and it's also Pride Month.

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Shaun Proulx: Happy Pride.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Happy pride.

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Happy pride.

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Absolutely.

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And that's something people have

asked do we still wanna say happy

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pride with all the stuff that goes on?

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I think yes, we absolutely do.

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Shaun Proulx: More than ever

we wanna be saying that.

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Yes.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yes.

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And Shaun, my dear friend,

is in Toronto and he is.

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As I have said before,

he is Canada's Oprah,

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Shaun Proulx: that

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someone said it once

and it's never dropped,

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: but

he does not give away cars, just

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Shaun Proulx: okay.

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I would if I could.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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Yeah, he would if he could.

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He has an amazing sidekick named Leo.

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Who's absolutely gorgeous and Leo.

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Leo, I should clarify that.

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Leo is Shaun's dog, his fur kid

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Shaun Proulx: four-legged son,

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: There you go.

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His four-legged son.

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And he is just lovely.

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I tend to

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remember my people that matter

to me by their fur kids.

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Shaun Proulx: Oh, do you?

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I do.

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I do.

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Sometimes they're not fur either.

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Sometimes they have scales.

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But anyway, all kidding aside,

we wanna talk about things that

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are important for us, the allies.

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That are here for the men in our

lives, for the lesbians in our lives,

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for the gay and queer and trans

and two-spirit and pansexuals and

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non-binary transgendered people.

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We are.

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People like me are here for you, and

Shaun is going to talk with me about

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how do we step up and do what we need

to do so that people are more educated

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about, I guess the differences.

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'cause quite frankly,

there aren't that many.

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No.

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Okay.

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And something I want people to know,

'cause this is super important.

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If you cut any one of us,

whatever our leanings are, we

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all bleed red blood bottom line.

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That's it.

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And for me, I am simple

when it comes to this stuff.

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I believe we are humans and I understand

why we have to have the labels we

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have, but if it were up to me, we'd

have one label and that's human.

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Because I think that's all that matters.

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And the only thing that should

separate us is the space between

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us as we come together for a hug.

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Shaun Proulx: That's beautiful.

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I wanted to say, Elaine, I said at

the beginning of this the work you do.

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So good.

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Really good.

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And you're an example of what an ally

really is in the queer community.

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A lot of people mistakenly think that

an ally is someone who just shows up

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at pride or goes to your gay parties

with you or says they support your

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gay marriage or whatever, simplistic

things that could go on with people

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when they, through their allies.

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What a real ally is someone who

does the work, and I've watched

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you over the years and even just

inviting me onto your podcast today.

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It's, you're thoughtful and you

want to make change happen and you.

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You take action towards that change.

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And that's true allyship,

and I thank you for that.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That means the world to me.

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It really does because for so long,

I think I was frozen in everything

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before I started doing the podcast.

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I wanted to help.

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I wanted to help so many, so much,

but sometimes when you don't know

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where to start, you're just frozen.

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And now there, there've been a

few challenges in my life, so

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sometimes I had to pay attention

to those things and it would just

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leave me horrifically unsatisfied

that I just wasn't stepping up.

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I.

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And my husband and my friends will

tell you, I've always been, I've

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always been one to stand up for the

underdog, whatever that might be.

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In grade one, I got in trouble

with the brothers and the nuns

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Catholic school in Toronto, St.

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Philip Neary, because I

kept, why am I not having

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Shaun Proulx: a hard time picturing that

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it's not taxing my imagination?

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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I kept biting the guys in, I was

grade one, grade five because I

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couldn't reach high enough to punch

them in the face, but bite them.

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Made a habit of picking on this young man.

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He was in their class, but I

think he was a little bit slow,

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developmentally delayed, we say.

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And they used to take his marbles all

the time, and then they'd ask him to

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play every day and he'd get so excited.

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They wanted to play with

him, but they didn't.

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They just wanted to steal his marbles.

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Shaun Proulx: Kids are awful.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: They really are.

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Okay kids, as much as our

kids can be wonderful.

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We have to train them.

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We have to mold them and tell them what's

right because they come to us unfiltered.

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They just, there's no holding back.

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There's no understanding

of what's right and wrong.

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My lovely youngest grandson, who

is now eight, about four years ago

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at breakfast in a full restaurant.

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Said, daddy said, you

are 60 some years old.

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I said, oh, that's right.

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I think 64, whatever.

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And he, oh my God, you're so old.

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That's,

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I thought it was funny.

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But for a woman who doesn't share

her age, that can be devastating.

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Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

And kids are like that.

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They don't, there are none of those

filters, and sometimes the filters

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are not good because if you teach

your children to fear people who

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are different, then those aren't the

filters we want those kids to have.

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Shaun Proulx: It's a hard

cycle to break though.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It really is.

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The only filters we want are the

filters of kindness and empathy.

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Shaun Proulx: The problem with empathy

is that it's not taught and it's

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something that needs to be taught.

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Yeah.

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And do you know, in Australia and New

Zealand, that's part of their curriculum?

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Yep.

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In Denmark as well.

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Yeah.

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They teach empathy to kids there.

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Yeah.

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'cause if you don't and we do

things like cut arts funding and

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schools and so that cuts people's

imaginations when they're little kids

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if they're not exploring the arts.

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And playing and doing the things that

make your imagination come alive,

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then we don't have an, we have an

empathy problem because it takes an

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imagination to be able to empathize.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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Shaun Proulx: And so there's a whole

bunch of things that we're doing

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wrong where empathy is concerned.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, absolutely.

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And, and another, when my son was seven

or eight my son was a very precocious

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child and incredibly good in math.

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However, he couldn't draw a

stickman to save his life.

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His sister.

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It's airy fairy, God, love her,

cannot do math to save her life back.

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Then

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Shaun Proulx: I can relate.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

She's a very talented artist.

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She was the window dresser

for our store for years at 50.

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Okay.

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She's incredibly talented, incredibly

creative, and he made fun of her.

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In the store as we were closing one night

this will sound bizarre, but he liked to

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tally the MasterCard receipts with the

little calculator 'cause that's his thing.

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And he was making fun of her

about not being able to count.

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I came up and said,

okay, stop right there.

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Okay.

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This is not fair.

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Shaun Proulx: That kind

of thing lasts a lifetime.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Yeah, it really does.

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And I said, I want you to know.

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Every single human being on this planet

has one skill that they excel at.

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Everyone has one

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it doesn't matter who they are or

what challenges they have one skill.

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Math is not hers, but you.

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You can't even draw a

stick man and your sister.

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Paints and draws and carves rocks and does

all kinds of things that you can't do.

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Does she make fun of you?

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And he was very upset because he's

precocious and didn't wanna talk to me and

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told his father I was mean and blah, blah.

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But it stuck.

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Shaun Proulx: It stuck.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: We understood.

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What I was saying to him.

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Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

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We need a variance on that kind

of conversation when it comes

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to talking about queer kids.

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Queer people.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yes.

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And you, there are children

who know they're not in the

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body they were meant to be in.

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Shaun Proulx: Yes.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That's not who they are.

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That's not how they feel.

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And for all the fear and loathing

that's out there that, oh, you're

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gonna make everybody queer.

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No you're not.

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Okay.

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That's not how it works.

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It's like I could make everybody

a munchkin and be as short as me.

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That doesn't work.

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Shaun Proulx: An old trope.

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It's such an old trope.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It's and

it's so ridiculous because when

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you see someone who's allowed to be

themselves, and I'm talking to my

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friend , it took knowing Lara's story.

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For me to fully understand how deep it

runs, how important it is to let people

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be themselves, and now not as old as me.

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Definitely not in your range.

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Lara is living her best life.

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And that took a lot.

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And the fact is.

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Having allies is what helped her along.

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Having allies is what helps all of us.

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Shaun Proulx: The queer movement

is nothing without allyship.

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We can't do it on our own.

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We can't.

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We can't be the ones who are not normal,

quote unquote, and beg the normal people

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to accept us because that'll never work.

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The normal people need to

turn to the normal people

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and say, we must accept them.

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Yeah.

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And that's what works.

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Yeah.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Except that word

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Shaun Proulx: I put it in quotes.

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Yeah, because that's

what people think though.

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Straight people are the normal ones.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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Okay.

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I'm gonna say right

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Shaun Proulx: here.

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That is normal.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

No, there is nothing.

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No.

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Oh, no.

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Shaun Proulx: I don't agree

with the concept, but I think

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that the concept is alive.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It

is, and I think it's ridiculous.

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Shaun Proulx: Live in a

heteronormative world,

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: like in all

honesty, if you really think about it.

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Straight people, listen to me here.

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Do you really wanna live in a world where

everybody's exactly the same and we all

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wear beige and we all leave the house

at 9:00 AM and we all come back at five?

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Shaun Proulx: Some do.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh my God.

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Shaun Proulx: Some do.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I wouldn't.

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Last five seconds.

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I need variety in my life.

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Shaun Proulx: But you understand

that diversity is our friend.

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Sameness isn't our friend.

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Yeah.

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And a lot of people think

that sameness is what we want.

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Oh my God.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: That sameness,

I think is what ultimately kills people.

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Shaun Proulx: Yes.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Because sameness kills hope.

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It kills curiosity.

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And if we don't have

curiosity and gratitude.

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We don't have hope.

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Shaun Proulx: Everything around

us is born from the diversity

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of ideas and thoughts and yeah,

conclusions that we reach as a whole.

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Without that, there's nothing going on in

the world, like literally in the world.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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We never would've got to the wheel.

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Shaun Proulx: You wouldn't have art

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: one person.

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Shaun Proulx: No.

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You'd have nothing.

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Innovation.

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Nothing.

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Yeah.

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We need the diversity.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

We need the diversity.

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And not only that.

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I'm a baby boomer.

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I said to you off camera,

I'll be 70 in November.

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So I've been on this planet a long time.

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When I was a kid there was a

family who lived downstairs in the

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apartment building where we lived,

and the young man's name was Larry.

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And Larry was, I think

probably 10 years older than

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me

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and Larry had a hard time making friends.

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And people made fun of Larry, which really

annoyed me 'cause he was really nice

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and him and his mom really liked cats.

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We didn't see his father a

lot 'cause he worked a lot.

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But I now know that Larry was gay.

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I didn't know it then

and it didn't matter.

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Larry lived downstairs

and Larry was a friend.

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I don't categorize, I don't have

a book that says, okay, these

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are my five, foot two friends and

these are my six feet friends.

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And these are my friends

who only wear red.

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And these are like, it's ridiculous.

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So why would I people.

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By their sexual, I don't wanna say

preference because I know that being

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gay isn't necessarily a preference.

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It is who you are.

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And so preference is not the word?

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Shaun Proulx: No.

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That's an old word.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

It's very old word.

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Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

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And I want to use like

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orientation.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Thank you.

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Okay.

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Whatever your orientation is.

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It really has no bearing

on me unless that's what

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Shaun Proulx: we wish everyone thought.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah,

unless I find someone attractive,

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then why would their own orientation

have anything to do with me?

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I don't, I never walked into

a job when I was younger.

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Hi there, I'm Elaine.

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I'm five two.

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They would've sent me packing,

thinking I was completely off my nut.

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Shaun Proulx: We like labels.

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Society loves the label.

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Yeah.

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It makes us understand each other.

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It puts each other in different

rungs on the ladder of society.

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We like to place people in their boxes.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

See that there we have it.

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Put them in their place.

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Yeah.

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That's why it's a problem for me.

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I don't like boxes.

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Boxes have sharp edges.

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That's not for me.

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That must be why I think the way I do.

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I don't wanna put people in boxes.

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You can't get close and cuddle in boxes

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and people who know me

know I will hug you.

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:

It doesn't matter if I've known you five

minutes or five years or five decades.

379

:

I will hug you 'cause it's who I am.

380

:

I don't know how to, I dunno,

inject that into other people

381

:

Shaun Proulx: really by example.

382

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

383

:

I want people to be able to see through my

eyes, i'm not let's put it this way, okay.

384

:

There are people that can be

annoying of every kind in the world.

385

:

Tall people, short people,

hetero people, gay people.

386

:

There are people who just

don't have a great attitude.

387

:

It doesn't have anything to

do with their orientation.

388

:

Shaun Proulx: No.

389

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It's just

who they are or who they choose to be.

390

:

Because quite often our

attitude is what we choose.

391

:

And the beauty of that is, and

why I think we can make change.

392

:

Viktor Frankl said it best.

393

:

No one can take away my choice.

394

:

Shaun Proulx: True.

395

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I

can choose to be inclusive.

396

:

I can choose to open my mind and

learn about the people around me.

397

:

Shaun Proulx: So I don't think

that it's a lot of work for a lot

398

:

of people though, you know that.

399

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I know that,

and I know it's a lot of work, but I

400

:

think there's a seed of something there

that we can get people to realize.

401

:

Just choose.

402

:

Choose to be open.

403

:

To be curious.

404

:

Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

405

:

But when you're raised, when you're raised

to be closed, when you're raised to be

406

:

fearful, where when you're raised to be

hateful of others, which is what is the

407

:

cause of all of this, hate's taught, then

to open your mind up at a later point

408

:

in life is a really hard thing to do.

409

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

410

:

Shaun Proulx: And

411

:

what takes what makes change is when

people know another person who's queer.

412

:

That's when the change

starts to really happen.

413

:

If they know somebody and they like

somebody and then they find out they're

414

:

queer, it doesn't matter to them anymore

because they already like them or love

415

:

them, that's when the change happens.

416

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Okay?

417

:

So we have to have mixers

everywhere, in every neighborhood.

418

:

So you can get to meet someone

of a different persuasion.

419

:

And I'm not just saying for

pride, I'm saying immigrants.

420

:

I'm saying, people are indigenous peoples.

421

:

There are people that don't know any or

have not taken the time to meet them.

422

:

For me, it's all part of a bigger sadness.

423

:

We are not allowing ourselves

to have these experiences,

424

:

which can be so wonderful.

425

:

You are a riot to hang out with.

426

:

Okay.

427

:

You are a lovely gentleman.

428

:

I absolutely adore you and.

429

:

Hopefully I'll make you blush 'cause

you are, you're just absolutely lovely,

430

:

Shaun Proulx: very kind.

431

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: You are not the

only gentleman I know of any persuasion.

432

:

But I'm always open to meet more people..

433

:

Because they are what

make the world go round.

434

:

Shaun Proulx: I'm listening to you

and I love everything you're saying.

435

:

I guess I just, it's making me really feel

that the world isn't set up for everything

436

:

that you're wanting and desiring and

wishing for and thinking could happen.

437

:

It's just not construct that way.

438

:

We live in a patriarchy.

439

:

We live in a world where the.

440

:

Gay people are still lower on

the totem pole than others.

441

:

It's not it's not gonna

be solved by a mixer.

442

:

Do you know what I'm saying?

443

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

444

:

Shaun Proulx: It would be nice to be able

to just do that, but it's almost like a

445

:

sixties hippie song that you're singing.

446

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

447

:

Yeah.

448

:

Era.

449

:

Shaun Proulx: So though.

450

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

451

:

I really do.

452

:

And it's good that we're here.

453

:

I wanna say is, so what do you think is

the best way to go about what's a small

454

:

change that we allies can affect right

now and put out into the world so that

455

:

we can make it more inclusive and safer?

456

:

For those that we are allies of.

457

:

Shaun Proulx: If you see

something, say something that

458

:

adage, I think is key for allies.

459

:

We go through life all day every

day, and somebody right now is

460

:

being abused because they're queer.

461

:

If you see something, say something I live

in, right here in Toronto, gay Village.

462

:

I.

463

:

And you still see it all the time

on Church Street, which should be

464

:

a safe street for people to be on.

465

:

Abuse being hurled up to queer people

at drag queens couples holding hands.

466

:

You see it all the time and you've

gotta speak up and condemn that.

467

:

But it's gotta be the allies that do that.

468

:

To the allies.

469

:

Yeah.

470

:

The restructuring needs to go on

within the place of the problem.

471

:

We queer people aren't

doing anything wrong.

472

:

We can't fix what's broken in your home.

473

:

You have to do the work in your own home.

474

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: That was so

475

:

good.

476

:

So good.

477

:

I we could not have scripted

that it is up to the allies.

478

:

Because the allies are the

ones who have the problems.

479

:

Yeah.

480

:

Shaun Proulx: Not the allies.

481

:

The straight world has the problems.

482

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

483

:

Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

484

:

So it's up to the straight

world to fix the problems.

485

:

We can't do anything about it.

486

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

487

:

Shaun Proulx: We can demand

things, we can ask for things.

488

:

We can hope for things, we can, protest

for things, but we don't have the

489

:

control that the straight population has.

490

:

That's true.

491

:

They have the ability to change and

they have to have the desire to change.

492

:

And the wanting to change and to

guide each other into that change.

493

:

We can't hold people's hands for them

and pull them into our direction.

494

:

Do you know what I mean?

495

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Yeah, absolutely.

496

:

That doesn't work.

497

:

It has to be us.

498

:

The allies,

499

:

Shaun Proulx: just like you told the

story of your son and your daughter

500

:

and you, you chastised your son and

explained to him the way things were.

501

:

That's what needs to go on within

straight communities, between allies.

502

:

Yeah.

503

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And I believe

504

:

we have to start with education.

505

:

I've said that before,

506

:

but educating and working on things like

bullying in school and letting people

507

:

know that kids being different is.

508

:

How it should be.

509

:

Okay.

510

:

We're not meant to be the same that

it's just, it doesn't even make sense.

511

:

For everyone to be exactly the same.

512

:

Shaun Proulx: No, the bullying piece is

really important because, as somebody

513

:

who was bullied mercilessly when I was

a kid for being gay, for being different

514

:

growing up in rural Ontario where the

mindset is a little more closed than

515

:

urban centers, I went through an awful

lot and you carry the scars of that,

516

:

the trauma of that into your adulthood.

517

:

When I first started out in

Toronto, in my early twenties,

518

:

I had no self-esteem whatsoever.

519

:

I had very little going on for myself.

520

:

And a lot of that goes back

to the constant bullying.

521

:

You get messages throughout your whole

life, society telling you're wrong,

522

:

your family telling you're wrong.

523

:

The kids around you telling you're wrong.

524

:

You become someone who

believes he's wrong.

525

:

And it's an awful lot of work

to get out of that mindset and

526

:

to become someone who's worthy.

527

:

And I've done the work on that.

528

:

And I'm pleased with myself

and I like who I am and I'm

529

:

comfortable in my own skin now.

530

:

But there are kids being bullied right

now all around the world for being

531

:

queer, and they're going to go through

the same predicaments and patterns

532

:

that I went through that millions

other of others have gone through.

533

:

And so the bullying piece is key

because you've gotta stop that.

534

:

You've gotta stop that and stop

letting people condemn other people

535

:

for being different, especially in

this day and age of social media,

536

:

where it can be so pervasive, so

cruel, and so deadly and damaging.

537

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

538

:

That's, for me that's a big

place to start because I've seen

539

:

the good social media can do.

540

:

I've been in this space

for a very long time.

541

:

And knowing the bad it can do,

542

:

that should be the impetus for all

of us who are allies to step up.

543

:

But I understand what you're saying

because I have friends that have

544

:

posted information about Pride month

and people come out of the woodwork

545

:

and put their hateful comments up,

546

:

right?

547

:

Whether they know you or not.

548

:

I think it's wonderful that those

of us are paying attention, and

549

:

that's really part of being an ally.

550

:

Shaun Proulx: So when you see that

though, you've gotta call that out.

551

:

Exactly.

552

:

And that's my point.

553

:

Even on

554

:

social media.

555

:

Yeah.

556

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

557

:

Make a point of calling it out and

I'm I'm a little more annoying.

558

:

Just ask Facebook.

559

:

I will report each and every one of them.

560

:

Shaun Proulx: Good for

561

:

you.

562

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That's a hate crime.

563

:

Shaun Proulx: The reporting helps

because it removes the offensive Yeah.

564

:

Post.

565

:

But what really helps is

publicly calling them out Yeah.

566

:

On what they've said.

567

:

Yeah.

568

:

And making them think twice.

569

:

And you've gotta do it in a way where

they're gonna think about it, not be so

570

:

defensive or angry because you're calling

them out, but give them food for thought

571

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And you Yeah.

572

:

And doing it in a way that

573

:

Shaun Proulx: be tactful

574

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

575

:

If you can manage to not call them wrong.

576

:

Point out that their actions are,

and that's a very fine line to walk,

577

:

but that's the difference between

getting someone's backup and having

578

:

them consider what you've asked.

579

:

Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

580

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

And it is such a fine line.

581

:

It's a really hard one to walk and

I'm not good at it all the time.

582

:

'cause sometimes I just,

583

:

Shaun Proulx: oh, you wanna

rage posts back sometimes.

584

:

Yeah.

585

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

586

:

And yeah and just wanting to slap people

that hurt the people that matter to me.

587

:

Not an effective,

588

:

Shaun Proulx: not a good contribution.

589

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: No.

590

:

It's really not.

591

:

And it's not a good look.

592

:

Other people are not gonna

find that attractive either.

593

:

Shaun Proulx: No, you're

just as bad as they are.

594

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Exactly.

595

:

Yeah, exactly.

596

:

And my grandmother said, you're going

to be tarred with the same brush.

597

:

So making a point of taking a breath as

an ally, you can take a step back, take

598

:

a breath, and make an educated, thought

out response, but don't let it go.

599

:

Don't ever let it go.

600

:

Shaun Proulx: No.

601

:

You can explain to the person that what

they said is powerful and it carries a

602

:

lot of weight, and that there's a lot of

consequences to the power that they're

603

:

putting out there with their words.

604

:

And absolutely explain that to them and

leave them with their dignity intact and

605

:

not feeling like they've been shamed,

but explain to them what this is doing to

606

:

people and how it's not helping anybody.

607

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Yeah, absolutely.

608

:

And.

609

:

I think, Maya Angelou said that

the more we know, the better we do,

610

:

which can be useful in this case.

611

:

Okay.

612

:

I don't remember how long ago there was

a, I don't even remember who the group

613

:

was that did it, but they had picked

people from across Canada who were anti.

614

:

They didn't understand people

that were different 'cause I

615

:

don't think it was just gay.

616

:

They had gone into different areas

and put these people together with

617

:

people who were a different race or a

different orientation or what have you.

618

:

And they made them work together

for a few weeks and in the

619

:

end they all came to see that.

620

:

The other person, of course, was just

a person with some different thoughts.

621

:

Shaun Proulx: Of course, that's why

it takes getting to know somebody

622

:

who's queer to accept them and change

your whole outlook on gay people,

623

:

because a lot of the times it's just a

figment of people's imagination, right?

624

:

Yeah.

625

:

You don't know a gay person.

626

:

They've been taught that gay people are

horrible, that we're' pedophiles, that

627

:

we're groomers, that we're coming for

your kids, all that kind of nonsense.

628

:

And so you've got this monster

in your head, and then you meet

629

:

someone who's quite lovely fun

to be around that you like a lot.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

And you realize that the monster is

just a figment of your imagination that

632

:

you've been taught this whole time.

633

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And this,

and telling stories on myself.

634

:

In 1999, I started

working with a gentleman.

635

:

He was in one of the other offices

close to me and we became really good

636

:

friends and we would go to movies

and do all kinds of stuff together.

637

:

And that's when I started

talking about gay marriage.

638

:

I thought I was a recovering Catholic.

639

:

And I said to him one night we were

going out and we were talking about

640

:

different things and I said yeah, I think

maybe you should leave marriage alone.

641

:

He said, whoa, why?

642

:

Hang on, like you're my friend.

643

:

And I said, oh, I don't

have a problem with that.

644

:

But, and then I really had to think about

it and it took a few months for him and I

645

:

Shaun Proulx: so you

had a problem with that

646

:

? Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I thought,

in my head, I guess the still Catholic

647

:

part of me that was stuck in parochial

school thought, Ooh, that's a sacrament.

648

:

And then I thought, suicide's

the worst sin in the Catholic

649

:

religion and I don't believe that.

650

:

So I have work to do.

651

:

There's so many forces at work.

652

:

There's toxic masculinity,

there's religion.

653

:

There's so much that needs to be fixed.

654

:

That's why I said earlier when you're,

when you were projecting your wishlist

655

:

of the way you wish people were so many

forces at play that are making people's

656

:

opinions form and their hate flourish.

657

:

Knowing that I could then investigate

what I thought was in my head

658

:

and realize that was ridiculous.

659

:

Shaun Proulx: Okay.

660

:

Like you're

661

:

self aware.

662

:

A lot of people aren't, they're

not gonna investigate the

663

:

thought that's inside their head.

664

:

They're just gonna feel the emotion that

they feel when they think the thought.

665

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Oh, that's horrible.

666

:

Shaun Proulx: It's true though.

667

:

Yeah.

668

:

People are lazy.

669

:

That's why I applaud you

in the work you're doing.

670

:

You go outta your way to, to put ideas

out into the world and to be a really

671

:

good ally to the queer community

and I appreciate that so much.

672

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

It's because you all matter.

673

:

Like I don't see any one person

of any persuasion being any

674

:

less valuable than any other.

675

:

Everybody has the opportunity.

676

:

To do something marvelous

677

:

in the world for other people.

678

:

And that, to me, that's a miracle,

that's an incredible gift.

679

:

Shaun Proulx: If we could bottle

your attitude and sell it, make

680

:

everyone have a dose, I think the

world would be a better place.

681

:

But it's not that way, unfortunately.

682

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

683

:

And my point there was, okay.

684

:

I'm not perfect.

685

:

I'm, I have never purported to

be perfect or even close, but I

686

:

did have to overcome some of the

things that I grew up thinking.

687

:

Yeah.

688

:

And even in the hetero world we went

home to Scotland when I was 13 years

689

:

old, and I don't know what happened

between my grandfather and my father and

690

:

my mom, but in the middle of the night.

691

:

I woke up and my mother was sitting

on the side of the bed, and I think

692

:

my dad had been crying and it spun

my world out of because he was a man.

693

:

He was our provider, right?

694

:

Men don't cry.

695

:

Men silent men don't get upset,

and it took me a couple of

696

:

years to, to get to a place.

697

:

I realized that was actually a bonus

that my father was a real human being.

698

:

Yeah.

699

:

Now granted he helped my mom.

700

:

He would do the vacuuming and

the dishes and what have you when

701

:

all the curtains were closed.

702

:

He was,

703

:

Shaun Proulx: that's huge.

704

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

705

:

But it.

706

:

Shaun Proulx: When we talk about toxic

masculinity, which is a subject that we've

707

:

only just started to grasp and understand.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

It's brand new to us.

710

:

And when we're ruled by the patriarchy,

we have been for so long now.

711

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

712

:

Shaun Proulx: You get men growing

up that are afraid to be emotional.

713

:

That are afraid to be vulnerable.

714

:

Yeah.

715

:

Who

716

:

then look at guys who are gay, who are

more in touch with their emotional side,

717

:

more emotionally intelligent, more in

touch with their feminine energy, and

718

:

they're chastised and beaten down.

719

:

Because they are not, men.

720

:

And they're crying and they're

vulnerable and they love each other

721

:

and they're soft and they're emotional.

722

:

And those are things that

contribute to the ongoing problem

723

:

between straight people and

queer people all day, every day.

724

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

725

:

And in different races, it is culturally.

726

:

Not appropriate

727

:

No.

728

:

For

729

:

men to not be toxic.

730

:

Shaun Proulx: No.

731

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And

that, I've had guys on the show who

732

:

that's what they talk about within.

733

:

Their culture it's

impossible to show feelings.

734

:

So you can imagine what it would

be for them to come out as a

735

:

different sexual orientation.

736

:

Shaun Proulx: I know so many black

guys, gay, black guys who are not

737

:

out to their family and their crowd,

they're on the down low all the time.

738

:

Oh my

739

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: God.

740

:

Yes.

741

:

Yes.

742

:

Shaun Proulx: Which is a huge problem.

743

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yep.

744

:

And there are there are.

745

:

Lots of guys.

746

:

Na Nathaniel is one of them.

747

:

And I can see a bunch in my head

that are all working hard with their

748

:

communities to acknowledge these

differences and to say, you know what?

749

:

Step up.

750

:

Be a man.

751

:

Have feelings.

752

:

And whatever those feelings you

have, acknowledge them, honor them.

753

:

Don't get stuck in these

stupid stereotypes.

754

:

Shaun Proulx: Not easy to do.

755

:

Once again,

756

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: no.

757

:

No, at all.

758

:

None of it's easy.

759

:

Shaun Proulx: None of it's easy.

760

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

And I do understand that.

761

:

I think I had the,

762

:

I don't know, luck.

763

:

Maybe that's not the right word.

764

:

I volunteered at Rideau

Regional Hospital School.

765

:

It was a huge asylum for developmentally

delayed people and other issues.

766

:

I was there from the

time I was 12 years old.

767

:

At 15, they started paying me

to work there for the summers,

768

:

so I had a much broader view.

769

:

The world.

770

:

'cause I saw a lot of things that

a lot of people my age did not.

771

:

And it gave me, more open attitude.

772

:

Yeah.

773

:

Shaun Proulx: Yeah.

774

:

It's like traveling almost.

775

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

776

:

Yeah.

777

:

Shaun Proulx: Lot of people.

778

:

Other ways of living.

779

:

Other ways of being.

780

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

781

:

And for as much as my

parents, God rest them both.

782

:

We're Scottish, we are, the working class.

783

:

We came from nothing.

784

:

And there were tropes that came with them.

785

:

But my parents were the first

to step up and never let

786

:

someone eat on a holiday alone.

787

:

They were the first to make sure if

someone walked by them on the street

788

:

and they didn't have, my dad would

make sure that they got to eat.

789

:

There was always, they, there

was always an outpouring for

790

:

all, even with the tropes and the

weird old stereotypical things.

791

:

And a friend of my father's that he

worked with, and I actually babysat for

792

:

he had come out after he left the service,

but while he was a veteran peacekeeper.

793

:

Shaun Proulx: So when was that?

794

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Would've

been in the early nineties.

795

:

And he just ghosted the peacekeepers.

796

:

And my dad looked everywhere for him and

he kept saying, have you seen his brother?

797

:

Do you know?

798

:

And I hadn't.

799

:

And I ended up running into him

at Spam Alot at the NAC here.

800

:

I said what on earth is wrong with you?

801

:

Dad's been looking for you ? He

goes, oh no, your dad couldn't.

802

:

He said, don't be ridiculous.

803

:

Your

804

:

Shaun Proulx: dad couldn't.

805

:

What

806

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: handle

the fact that he had come out?

807

:

I said, it doesn't matter to dad.

808

:

He's old.

809

:

Yeah, he's old school, but you

are our friend, and he came to

810

:

my mother's funeral in 2012.

811

:

And my father was so thankful.

812

:

He, and he did not word it well

when he talked to him, but he

813

:

understood what my dad was saying.

814

:

And he said Tony, my dad said,

don't ever, okay, there is nothing

815

:

about you that isn't the same to me.

816

:

Shaun Proulx: That's everything

we're talking about, isn't it?

817

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

And it was.

820

:

For me, it was wonderful.

821

:

And our eldest granddaughter she

went through a period where she

822

:

was seeing girls and then both and

whatever you do is fine with me.

823

:

But this was, again, early 20 13, 20 14,

and she had put something up about, she

824

:

was dating Jen and on her wall, and I said

to my husband I guess I better tell dad.

825

:

And so I called my dad and I

said, I just wanted to tell

826

:

you something about Marilyn.

827

:

Oh.

828

:

Oh my God.

829

:

What's wrong?

830

:

Is she okay?

831

:

Yes, she's fine.

832

:

She's fine.

833

:

But I wanted to know she's

dating someone and he said.

834

:

Where have you been?

835

:

I know that I said, what do you mean?

836

:

You know that Jen?

837

:

Have you not seen Jen?

838

:

Shaun Proulx: And he

was totally accepting.

839

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Okay.

840

:

And she had put something on her wall

that said, how incredible it was that

841

:

her great-grandfather was totally okay.

842

:

Yeah,

843

:

Shaun Proulx: I noticed this with people

when they're aging is they get more

844

:

accepting of the people around them.

845

:

I remember my mom when I was a little

boy, maybe a teenager, she, I was telling

846

:

her I thought my art teacher was gay.

847

:

And she said you should

feel sorry for him then.

848

:

And I never, and I knew I was

gay and I never forgot that.

849

:

To talk to my

850

:

mom these days.

851

:

There's no opinion remotely close to that.

852

:

She's very much let everyone be.

853

:

And I noticed that with a lot of older

people, as they're aging, they drop a lot

854

:

of the hate and the misunderstanding and

they just, they go more for where we all

855

:

want to be, which is grounded in love.

856

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: It, and

I guess it's funny 'cause I hadn't

857

:

thought about this, but as we were

talking about it, my grandmother

858

:

and my aunt came to Canada with us.

859

:

In the late fifties, and we all lived

in Ottawa, and then I moved to Toronto.

860

:

But when I was a teenager, my grandmother

had me go to her hairdresser because she

861

:

did not like the brassy color of my hair.

862

:

And Jack was the top stylist at Freeman's.

863

:

He was a wonderful man.

864

:

And I knew I worked at Freeman's.

865

:

I knew he was head of the group.

866

:

He was part of this gay group that

ran the coral reef which was a few

867

:

streets over and thought, oh, cool.

868

:

I didn't say anything for a long time.

869

:

And when I was in my late twenties,

something had happened and I said,

870

:

oh my God, Gran is Jack okay?

871

:

And she said he is, but I can't remember

if his name was Ken, but Ken is whatever.

872

:

And they're having a very hard

time because Ken was sick.

873

:

And I said, oh his friend,

he said, she said, no.

874

:

Is lover what?

875

:

She goes, of course I know.

876

:

I've been seeing the man for, why

didn't you know twenty seven years?

877

:

What's wrong with you?

878

:

And I thought, oh wow.

879

:

And maybe that's why I am more likely to

be open because my, some of my family were

880

:

much more open than one would ever think.

881

:

Shaun Proulx: Elaine, I hate to say

this, but I've, we've gone over time,

882

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh my God.

883

:

We have.

884

:

I would love to have

you back at some point.

885

:

Hopefully

886

:

. Shaun Proulx: I love talking to you.

887

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh,

I love talking to you too.

888

:

I hope we've covered enough

of what we wanted to cover.

889

:

Happy Pride Month to everybody for

men's mental Health, everybody.

890

:

If you are a man or have a

man in your life, make sure he

891

:

takes care of his mental health.

892

:

We wanna keep you all here.

893

:

I absolutely adore you, Shaun.

894

:

Shaun Proulx: I love you too,

and you always bring the light.

895

:

Thank you.

896

:

You're such a lovely person.

897

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

You are wonderful.

898

:

You are a balm to the soul.

899

:

Shaun Proulx: Thanks so much.

900

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: So to our

audience, you'll find all the information

901

:

about Shaun below on the bio and the

show notes, and we'll make sure you have

902

:

ways that you contact him if you need to.

903

:

On that note, I say thanks

very much for being with us.

904

:

We'll talk to you later.

905

:

Shaun Proulx: Bye.

906

:

Voiceover: Thank you for being

here for another inspiring episode

907

:

of Suicide Zen Forgiveness.

908

:

We appreciate you tuning in.

909

:

Please subscribe and download on your

favorite service and check out SFS

910

:

YouTube channel or Facebook community.

911

:

If you have the chance to leave

a five star rating to review,

912

:

it'd be greatly appreciated.

913

:

Please refer this to a friend you

know, who may benefit from the hope

914

:

and inspiration from our guests.

915

:

Suicide

916

:

Zen forgiveness was brought to you by the

following sponsors, TROOL Social Media,

917

:

the Digital Integration Specialists.

918

:

Let them get your rocking page

one in the search results.

919

:

Canada's keynote, humerist Judy Croon,

motivational speaker, comedian, author,

920

:

and standup coach at Second City.

921

:

Judy has been involved for over

a decade in the City Street

922

:

Outreach program in Toronto.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All
Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All
Shattering Stigma Igniting Hope

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Elaine Lindsay

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