Episode 31

The Messy Truth of Healing: From Anorexia to Acceptance

9 31

The Messy Truth of Healing: From Anorexia to Acceptance

Show Notes

💥 What We Talk About:

  • The "middle place" between acute sickness and recovery
  • How grief from her mother's death triggered an eating disorder
  • The shame spiral and stigma around not being "fully recovered"
  • Structural medical failures in diagnosing young girls
  • Why perfectionism is a trap in healing
  • The emotional education kids don’t get
  • Using narrative and vulnerability as tools for recovery
  • Her new memoir Slip, out August 2025

🔗 How to Connect with Mallary:

  • Preorder Slip on Amazon and Barnes & Noble
  • Follow Mallary Tenore Tarpley on social platforms (links in description)

📞 If You’re in Crisis: If you're in North America, text 988 for free, 24/7 support. Elsewhere? Please reach out to your local suicide prevention or mental health hotline. #YouMatter.

💬 Subscribe, rate, and share if this episode moved you. It could be the lifeline someone else didn’t know they needed. #ConverSAVEtions

Bio

Mallary Tenore Tarpley is an assistant professor of practice at The University of Texas at Austin's School of Journalism and Media and McCombs School of Business, where she teaches writing and reporting courses for undergraduate and graduate students. Mallary specializes in a variety of topics, including longform feature writing, creative nonfiction, solutions journalism and nonprofit journalism.

A longtime journalist, Mallary's articles and essays have been published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, The Dallas Morning News, The Tampa Bay Times, Teen Vogue, Harvard University’s Nieman Storyboard and more. She also maintains a weekly newsletter, Write at the Edge, where she shares writing tips and best practices. 

Mallary’s debut nonfiction book, “SLIP: Life in the Middle of Eating Disorder Recovery,” will be published by Simon & Schuster's Simon Element imprint and is now available for pre-order. The book blends immersive reporting, emerging science and social history around eating disorders alongside Mallary’s own harrowing journey from a childhood with anorexia to her present-day reality as a mother in recovery. While working on the book, Mallary received a grant from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation to support her reporting and writing.  

Previously, Mallary was the associate director of the Knight Center for Journalism in the Americas at UT, where she oversaw the Center's staff, programmatic work, events, fundraising, and more. Before that she was the executive director of Images & Voices of Hope (ivoh), a media nonprofit, where she oversaw the ins and outs of the organization and helped develop a storytelling genre called restorative narrative — stories that show how people and communities are finding meaningful pathways forward in the aftermath of tragedy. Mallary started her career at the Poynter Institute, where she became managing editor of the institute’s world-renowned media news site, Poynter.org.

Mallary holds bachelor's degrees in English and Spanish from Providence College, as well as a master's of fine arts in nonfiction writing from Goucher College. She lives outside of Austin with her husband and two young children.

Mallary Tenore Tarpley

Assistant Professor of Practice

School of Journalism and Media

McCombs School of Business 

The University of Texas at Austin

Links & Socials

mallary.tenore@utexas.edu 

Pre-order my book SLIP


Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All website

©2025-2018 Elaine Lindsay SZF42.com All rights reserved.

https://suicide-zen-forgiveness.captivate.fm/episode/the-messy-truth-of-healing-from-anorexia-to-acceptance

Elaine Lindsay

Explicit

Transcript
Speaker:

SZF42 Theme song: When moving

forward seems too much.

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When you feel totally out of touch,

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out the door, you find yourself.

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Curled on the floor.

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The thoughts swirl around

all jumbled and messed.

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Why is this brain so darkly obsessed?

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I've secret.

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I've never confessed.

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Haven't told the soul,

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I'm depressed.

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A gentle whisper through the pain.

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Remember rainbows, follow, breathe deeply.

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hold on tight, Your hope

will return shining bright.

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Embrace the now, release the past,

In forgiveness,, peace will last.

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You matter deeply, you're not alone.

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Reach out.

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Let your strength be shown.

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Now let's start the show.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: So it's

really wonderful to be here this

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afternoon, and I am going to, without

further ado, let you get to know

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our guest, Mallory Tenore Tarpley

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Hi there.

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Hi.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Thank

you so much for being my guest.

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I very much appreciate that.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Of course,

looking forward to the conversation.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, I'm glad.

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I'm glad.

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So let's start with why don't you

give us a little bit of an insight

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into who Mallory is and what you do.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Sure.

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So I am a journalism professor at the

University of Texas at Austin, and

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I'm the author of a new memoir that's

coming out in August titled Slip.

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And this is a book that I've been

working on for probably more than half

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my life, but it's really been in the past

five years that I've been working on.

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This latest iteration, and it's really

a blend of my own personal experiences

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with an eating disorder and research,

which I did over the course of about

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five years, where I interviewed and

surveyed lots of other people who had

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lived experience with eating disorders.

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As well as researchers and clinicians.

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And so just the Cliff note version

is that the book explores what I call

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the middle place, which is essentially

this name I've given to this space

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in between acute sickness and full

recovery from an eating disorder and.

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For me, it's been really interesting

exploring these questions of what does

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it mean to be better but not all better,

and what does it mean to still live

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with the imprints of your disorder?

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And I think those questions are relevant

for folks who have eating disorders, but

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also relevant for people struggling with

all different types of mental illnesses.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: You

hit the nail right on the head.

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Absolutely.

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This will be a very interesting

conversation and I know before we

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even start that anything chronic

illness or eating disorder or

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mental health condition, all of

those things have the same ebb and

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flow, the same timelines, and it's.

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It's interesting because I don't think

that we often think about eating disorders

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the same way we think about mental

health issues and certainly nodding

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the context of possibly being suicidal,

having ideation and suicide loss.

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In total it's actually unfortunate

that it can be very often.

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The end result and very happy to say,

not in your case, which is wonderful.

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But wow.

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I can't wait to see the book

because that that's something

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that very much interests me.

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Eating disorder piece, because there

are a number of different places

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on a spectrum of eating disorders.

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That all can ultimately lead

to the same issues, which I

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think is pretty interesting.

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And that's all I'm gonna say for now.

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I'm gonna let you go ahead and give

us a timeline, go back and give us

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an idea of what precipitated this.

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How old were you?

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And, how did it progress?

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Sure.

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So when I was eight, my mom was

diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer

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and was sick for about three years.

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And so during that time, my family

really held onto this belief that

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my mother was going to be okay

and that she was going to make it.

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We often talked about my mother being a

soldier in a battle or being the little

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engine that could, and the common refrain

was that she was going to come out the

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other side victorious, and she would

get to the other side of that mountain.

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And it's very clear in looking back

at my mom's old medical records, which

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I obtained when writing the book,

that she was not going to make it.

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I did not realize that

though as a young child.

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And so when the cancer spread to

her bone marrow and her liver and

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her brain, she ultimately did end

up passing away when I was 11.

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And after she passed away, I

continued to feel like I needed to

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be okay and pretend that I was fine.

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That was something I

did when she was sick.

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Probably partly because

I'm a perfectionist.

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But even after she passed away,

I went to school the day after

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she died, I wrote her eulogy.

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I.

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And didn't cry at all and really tried to

put on this happy face because I thought

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that was what I was supposed to do.

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I really didn't know what it

meant to grieve, but inside

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it felt like I was crumbling.

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And the more time passed, the farther I

felt from my mother, and I found myself

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wanting to stop time ways, and around

the same time I was in a seventh grade

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health class where I was learning about.

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Eating disorders and we were being

taught about quote unquote good foods and

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bad foods, and I was learning that you

could change the way your body looked,

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depending on the food you put into it.

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And it was around this time when I was

12, when I began to conjure up this

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idea that maybe somehow if I stayed the

same size my mother was when she was

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alive, I could become closer to her.

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For me, food restriction was this

almost warped form of time travel,

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and it was never about being skinny.

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I think a lot of times we have

misconceptions that everyone with an

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eating disorder just wants to be skinny.

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It was really about trying to stay

small and safe, and of course the irony

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of eating disorders is that we think

they'll give us one thing, but they end

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up stripping that completely from us.

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So the eating disorder left me

feeling farther away from my

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mother than ever before and more

out of control than ever before.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And yeah,

and I think an awful lot of that has

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to do with that control because when

we lose, as young as you were to lose

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your mom all of the pieces that you just

spoke about, writing the eulogy and.

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It's all a form of trying

to control the narrative.

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In your life.

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Did you have siblings?

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: No.

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So I'm an only child, so that made it

a little bit more complicated as well.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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That's losing one's.

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Mother is huge.

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But losing your mom when

you are an only child.

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Is, it's like having part of you ripped

asunder Yeah, that's, I'm so sorry.

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And you are so very young.

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And how long from 12 to what age

were you managing to appearances?

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: So for a while

when I was in the seventh grade, I

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was restricting my food intake and my

father could tell that something was

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off because I no longer wanted to get

pizza with him or go out for ice cream.

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And I wasn't eating the foods that we

had once enjoyed together as a family.

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But my father didn't really know what it

was that I was grappling with because.

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His only point of reference for eating

disorders was the death of singer

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songwriter Karen Carpenter, who had died

omplications from anorexia in:

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And in his mind, because of that,

he thought that it was only adults

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who struggled with eating disorders.

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And I didn't really have the

words to describe what it was

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that I was struggling with either.

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And my father had tried to take

me to our pediatrician, but.

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The pediatrician essentially told

him that it was just a passing

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phase that I was going through.

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And that speaks to some larger,

broader, systemic issues around Oh yeah.

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Lack of training on eating

disorders in the medical field.

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But we ended up having to go back to

this pediatrician who essentially told

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us the same thing six months later.

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And by that point I was almost.

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A year into struggling with what we later

came to know was an eating disorder.

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So it wasn't until my father took

me to Boston Children's Hospital in

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Massachusetts that the doctors looked at

me and said, you have anorexia nervosa.

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And so it was the first time we actually

had words to describe what it was.

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Yeah.

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I was struggling with and.

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For about a stretch of three years, I was

hospitalized five times and in residential

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treatment for a year and a half.

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So it was very much in this cycle

of moving in and out of treatment,

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and it wasn't until residential

treatment that I really began to

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work through my grief and to really.

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Start to make progress in my recovery.

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I think I needed that time and that

space away from home to really be able

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to work through the eating disorder.

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And I'm really grateful

that I was able to do that.

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Fortunately, my public school

district paid for all of my treatment,

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otherwise I never would've been able

to stay in treatment for that long.

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But that was a very difficult

stretch, as you can imagine

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for me and my whole family.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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And I can just imagine what was going

through your poor father's head.

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I only have one child

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and I'm not providing for her that's

gotta be a whole different dynamic.

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But it's unfortunate that.

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Because we don't have, or we're

starting to, but we've never had

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an understanding of grief because

it's not something we discuss.

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Grief, loss and eating disorders

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have never been in the mainstream

as far as conversation is concerned.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes.

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And I feel like grief is very private

and we don't talk about it enough.

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And often it's framed as

something that's quite linear.

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There's still talk, the five stages

of grief as if there's this very

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neat and tidy way of grieving.

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And yet for many of us, grief is

something we hold for a lifetime, right?

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The loss of that or the load of that

loss lightens, but it's still there.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

Yeah, I I liken grief.

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To a train and we get on and off the

grief train in our lifetime, depending

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on how many people we lose, some

people don't ever get off in between.

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But after a while, you learn

through how your grief ebbs

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and flows that you are able to.

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Work alongside or help somebody

else on the train with you so that

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they too can manage their grief.

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And it is not something

that has a timeframe.

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I don't know how many times

I've talked to people.

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Years ago this, it wasn't

even a human, I lost a puppy.

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We had taken in a sick puppy and

we ended up losing the puppy.

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And unfortunately she fell into the pool

and it was the time she had a seizure.

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And losing that puppy was devastating.

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But a very dear friend who I have

not talked to in years about five

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weeks later said, okay, come on.

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Tick, tick.

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Like, when are you getting over this?

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And it was just, it was like

someone threw cold water on me.

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I don't know that I'll ever be over

it, but it was part of my really

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examining what is it that people expect?

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What exactly is grief?

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And why do people think that they can

put a time limit on how long you hurt?

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There's no time limit on

how long we love people.

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So why would there be one

on the grief of losing them?

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It's horrible that as children,

there's no one really to talk to you

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about managing your grief because

although it won't ever go away, you

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are always going to have some grief.

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It can become manageable

and there are ways.

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To savor your memories and to make sure

that you can keep the essence of the

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person you lost alive by continuing with

their memory and talking about them.

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And it's just so sad to me that

we never, ever have done that.

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If people die, you have a funeral.

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Okay, that's done.

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Let's, okay.

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Now that's gone away.

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And it's like that with anything

that is a difficult subject.

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I believe eating disorders

are right in there.

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I'm I'm a lot older than you.

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I'm gonna be 70 in November, so as a

child, I remember hearing carpenter.

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Losing her life.

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And as a child, when it was someone

in the family that had a mental

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health issue, you didn't say anything.

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I worked at a huge facility.

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It was basically called an asylum, and I

volunteered there from the time I was 12.

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And at 15 I was hired for the summer.

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These were all.

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Things and places that

people didn't talk about.

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I thought it was wonderful that I

got to go to work and, but I couldn't

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really tell people 'cause they look

at you weird and you're doing what?

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Oh, why would you go there?

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I wanna help people.

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You know it.

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It just, it wasn't something that

was said or done or talked about and

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eating disorders back then, there

were people that were in the facility.

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Okay.

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I can see a young lady and I used to

think wouldn't she feel better at home?

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And it just something that

goes through your head.

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My, my point in all that is all of

these things for so many generations,

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we have kept a lid on everything and

didn't talk about it, didn't examine it.

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And we expect kids to get through

life with losing a parent or,

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I had a girlfriend I went to

school with whose mom was.

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Locked away for issues and she

wasn't allowed to talk about her.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: That's so hard.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

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And it, it's just so terribly sad.

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And that's part of the reason we do

the podcast because when you share your

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burden, it lightens your load somewhat.

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And it also lets other people

know they're not alone.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes.

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That is such a big part of why I wrote

this book, just to help people to feel

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seen and heard, and it's the book that

I wish I'd had when I was struggling

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because so often as a writer I would

turn to books for guidance and solace.

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And while many of the books on

eating disorders were helpful.

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I always felt like there was this lack

of a mirrored image, and that left me

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feeling really misunderstood and alone

because most of the books were written

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by clinicians or they were written

from the perspective of people who were

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fully recovered and who had OS sensibly

gotten past their eating disorder.

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And for me, as someone who.

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Still lives with the inference of

my disorder and who still contends

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with some of the behaviors.

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I really wanted a book that grappled

with that and explored in between

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space where you're not acutely

sick anymore, but you're also

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not recovered with a capital R.

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And so in talking with other people

for this book and doing lots of

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interviews, I realized that there's.

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So many other people navigating this

middle place, but they never really

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felt like they could share their

story because there was a lot of

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stigma and shame in admitting that

they weren't yet fully recovered.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And in all

honesty, I don't think there's anything

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we go through that we fully recover.

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You recover from mumps or the

measles or it has a timeframe.

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The big things in life, the

emotional stuff eating disorders and

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depression and anxiety and ideation.

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They're not things you

completely heal from.

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They are always a part of you

and you can find yourself falling

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back in, into certain behaviors.

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To me it's like addiction.

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Because whether it's, it's drink

or it's drugs or it's food or

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whatever, you're addicted to you.

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There always has to be a, an

internal vigilance, I think.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: I think

so too, and I think that the

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addiction community has actually

done a better job of expanding the

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verbiage for talking about recovery.

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So it's much more common for

folks, for instance, an alcoholic

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synonymous to say, I am a recovering

alcoholic, or I'm in recovery.

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And I think the eating disorder

field has come a long way, but I

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think that there still is a lot of.

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Stigma and shame around this

verbiage of being in recovery.

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And the field really has for so long

pushed full recovery and recovered period.

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And so I think that can be really

problematic at times, especially when you

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consider that folks with eating disorders.

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Do tend to be perfectionists.

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That is one of the temperament

traits that is very common among

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people with eating disorders.

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And so this notion of full recovery can

often feel like this perfectionistic

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ideal that is really hard to

maintain over any length of time.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Oh, absolutely.

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And the least little slip could,

precipitate something worse

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because you're a perfectionist.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes,

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exactly.

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And that's why I titled the book Slip

because I felt like there is so much

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shame around this idea of slipping.

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And I remember when I got out of

treatment, I tried to be the poster child

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for full recovery for about two years.

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I just was trying to eat perfectly

and exercise and be the best

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student in my high school and

do all the extracurriculars.

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But it felt exhausting and.

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I really was so fearful of making

any wrong move because I thought

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if I slip, I'm going to immediately

slide back into sickness.

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And I didn't believe there

was this space in between.

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So this period where I was trying to

achieve this perfect full recovery.

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Was both exhausting but also

terrifying because I was so afraid

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of making any wrong move or slipping

at all, and I used to really think

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of slips as grounds for failure.

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But now I tend to think of them more as

opportunities for growth because that very

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word slips suggest some sort of movement.

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You can't slip if you're standing still.

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That's true.

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So it's an opportunity to recognize

what happened and to continue,

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hopefully to move forward.

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I think

it gives you more of an opportunity

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to increase your wellness rather

than just stay where you are.

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Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yeah

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Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: I love

that, that very positive way of

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looking at things and that's how

we find ourselves in this podcast.

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The fact that the silence,

the stigma, and the shame.

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Around so many things.

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It's just, I think, very difficult

for humans to navigate life with

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everything that goes on in a day.

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Even if you are relatively well, it

still can be very hard and when you

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cloak so many things in shame, it is.

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I think it's the hardest thing in the

world for people to deal with because

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it's it's like shining this huge spotlight

on a tiny little speck, and you think

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that speck is the size of the world to

everyone else, and it doesn't matter.

340

:

How intelligent you are.

341

:

It doesn't matter how many times

you tell yourself that is not

342

:

so Shame has a life all its own.

343

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: It does.

344

:

And I think that shame keeps us silent

and silence keeps us stuck in sickness.

345

:

And I think that when folks are in this

position of just being perpetually sick

346

:

or being in the early stages of the middle

place and not feeling like they can seek

347

:

help, then they're much more likely to.

348

:

Stay stuck in their disorders.

349

:

And the sad reality is that every

year, 10,200 people will die due to

350

:

complications from an eating disorder, and

suicide is a leading cause of that death.

351

:

There's a lot of crossover between

suicide and eating disorders.

352

:

And so I think the more we can have open

conversations around eating disorders

353

:

and about the messiness of recovery, the

more we can open up spaces for people

354

:

to feel safe talking about these issues.

355

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

356

:

And it, I sometimes will go to things that

are really simple, but I think of when we

357

:

were little kids and we learned to walk,

we kept falling down and falling down.

358

:

What if like other things,

the minute we had a slip.

359

:

Okay, that's it.

360

:

I tried.

361

:

It didn't work.

362

:

I think eventually the human race

would stop having legs use them.

363

:

Just, I realize that's very simplistic

view of it, but taking the power away.

364

:

From the shame and the stigma by

laughing at it for me is a way to get

365

:

past it and go, oh look, the big scary

monster isn't, it's just a little tiny

366

:

thing, but it just yells really loud.

367

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yeah.

368

:

It's such a good way of putting it.

369

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Thank you.

370

:

Thank you do you have do you have

sections for people that like

371

:

workbook type sections or things

that you can, exercises they can

372

:

do to get themselves further ahead?

373

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: So the book

is really more narrative driven, and

374

:

so it doesn't have specific workbook

exercises or things of that nature.

375

:

However, in the chapters about my

recovery, I do talk a lot about just

376

:

journaling exercises and things that

I did to help me in my own recovery.

377

:

And so while it's not.

378

:

Prescriptive in the sense that, I say

these are the things that you should do.

379

:

I hope that in hearing and reading about

what I did in my treatment, that will then

380

:

give other people some ideas about what

they could apply to their own treatment.

381

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: So what's

one of the first things you would

382

:

say to someone who's coming to

terms with their eating disorder?

383

:

What's one of the first things that got

you to take a step in the right direction?

384

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: So one thing

that was really helpful for me was

385

:

finding an eating disorder provider who

I felt like I could trust, because I

386

:

think it's difficult given that eating

disorders can be so hard to understand.

387

:

They're very enigmatic, and I remember

as much as my father and grandmother

388

:

wanted to try to help me, they were

so confused by the disorder and often

389

:

they would say, just step on a scale

and see that you're losing weight or.

390

:

You're so smart, why

can't you figure this out?

391

:

Or just eat?

392

:

And as a parent myself of two young

children, I can completely understand

393

:

where those sentiments were coming

from and I have a lot more empathy

394

:

for them now as a parent myself.

395

:

But it can be incredibly, I.

396

:

Difficult as the child on the

receiving end of those comments.

397

:

Because when you have an eating

disorder, it's a disorder that doesn't

398

:

just affect your body, but it affects

your mind and there's actually changes

399

:

in the brain that happens when one is

struggling with an eating disorder and

400

:

so often it feels like the disorder is.

401

:

So incredibly hard to control.

402

:

And so for me, being able to actually seek

help from a provider who was trained in

403

:

eating disorders and who could understand

me on a different and deeper level was

404

:

really transformative in a lot of ways.

405

:

Certainly that coupled with inpatient

treatment was very helpful, but there

406

:

are many barriers to treatment and I

realize not everybody can necessarily.

407

:

Seek higher levels of care.

408

:

But for me that was really important.

409

:

And in working with that therapist, I

was able to really dig deep into the

410

:

origins of my eating disorder because

I think it's easy to simplify eating

411

:

disorders and say it's just about not

eating, or it's just about overeating.

412

:

And it's really, at the end of the

day, not so much about food, right?

413

:

There's always some sort of

trauma or some sort of underlying.

414

:

Difficulty that someone

is grappling with, right?

415

:

And food or not eating

becomes the coping mechanism.

416

:

And so for me, being able to actually

explore the connections between

417

:

my mother's death and my eating

disorder was incredibly helpful.

418

:

And that then paved the way

for me to be able to grieve.

419

:

It also enabled me to really be able to.

420

:

Develop other ways of coping

beyond food restriction and

421

:

beyond obsessive exercising.

422

:

But that did not happen overnight, right?

423

:

It took a very long time, and it was

something that happened through an

424

:

accumulation of very small baby steps.

425

:

I think I've sometimes been asked what was

the main turning point in your recovery?

426

:

And there really was never a

turning point, but there were these.

427

:

Little tiny pivots along the way.

428

:

That over time led to more

substantial growth and progress,

429

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: and I

think they build up and build up.

430

:

So yeah, you can't refer

to just one of them.

431

:

It's a series of things that, that get you

to a place where you can see vistas ahead.

432

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes, exactly.

433

:

And you can actually realize that

they're worthy of being seen.

434

:

And I think even just that idea of

seeing the vistas is so beautifully put.

435

:

Because for me, when I was

really acutely sick, I could not

436

:

see beyond my eating disorder.

437

:

And.

438

:

I defined myself through

the eating disorder.

439

:

I remember distinctly when I shifted from

saying I had anorexia to I am anorexic

440

:

as though it were, my entire identity.

441

:

And I stopped socializing.

442

:

I stopped reading and writing

and doing all the things that I

443

:

loved, and I really couldn't see

past the disorder until I really

444

:

started to work through my recovery.

445

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

It's like these things along

446

:

with the shame and the stigma.

447

:

It's, it eats away your hope.

448

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes.

449

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And whatever

that beastie, what I call it, whatever

450

:

that is, that's the hardest part is it

eats away at the hope and it's being able

451

:

to.

452

:

Return some hope.

453

:

I think that gives people the

opportunity to get on a road to recovery.

454

:

But from my understanding and I

could be wrong, but for me it's,

455

:

I feel that when we are triggered,

however by a trauma and some people.

456

:

Have an eating disorder.

457

:

Some people turn to addiction,

some people do whatever.

458

:

Something that I think the, at the core of

it all is something that you can control.

459

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes, too.

460

:

Yeah.

461

:

Yeah.

462

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah.

463

:

It seems like your world is you know,

out of order, and, I hear that quite

464

:

often in, in very different areas.

465

:

It's that something that you can

control, something that is not

466

:

attached to anything else, but that's

where you start to exert control.

467

:

And it quite often really has nothing

to do with a path that moves forward.

468

:

It can keep people stuck where they

are or send them backwards, but

469

:

it's just that, I guess grasping

for something to be able to manage.

470

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yeah,

especially when you've gone through

471

:

such a traumatic loss or something

that just really was unexpected.

472

:

And so I think, yeah, that

very much was the case for me.

473

:

And I remember thinking I couldn't

control what happened to my mom's body,

474

:

but I could control what I did to mine.

475

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And

we have to give children hope.

476

:

We just have to.

477

:

But our parents and our families and

everyone, when someone is very ill, they

478

:

try to instill sometimes even in the

person that's ill a, a will to go on.

479

:

And that I think in the end can

be detrimental because we don't

480

:

teach children about possible loss.

481

:

It, I realize it's very hard to do,

but giving them some understanding of

482

:

not everything goes our way all the

time and how do we cope with that?

483

:

I think it's something that we need

to start doing as part of education.

484

:

Saying that it's a.

485

:

To me, it's a much bigger thing and

you might be able to speak to this, is

486

:

we don't talk to kids about emotions

and feelings and the fact that

487

:

emotions are meant to flow and go.

488

:

They're not meant to be around forever.

489

:

And what is it they say

they last 30 to 90 seconds.

490

:

But if you don't know that and you

are in the middle of a meltdown.

491

:

You may not know that's ever going to

end and not having any tools to be able

492

:

to either articulate where you're at

or ask someone for help because you

493

:

don't know where the hell you're at.

494

:

I think it would be much better if we gave

kids, some of the pieces of our makeup.

495

:

One of one of our guests

here Rex Sykes talks about.

496

:

The fact that we have the most

powerful supercomputer in our heads,

497

:

and there are no instructions.

498

:

No one's ever told you.

499

:

They tell you how to ride your bike.

500

:

They tell you how to play with

your toys but no one says anything

501

:

about how to manage your brain.

502

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yeah.

503

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And

that just seems really bizarre.

504

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley:

Yes, it really does.

505

:

And I think it is complicated

by emotions, right?

506

:

And figuring out how do

we grapple with these?

507

:

And as you were talking, it made me

think about how when I was little and

508

:

I would cry, having to visit my mom

in the hospital when she was sick.

509

:

My family would say, don't cry.

510

:

And my father would say, don't be sad.

511

:

And I came to associate that with

sadness as a negative emotion

512

:

because I thought I can't feel this

way, I shouldn't feel this way.

513

:

And I'm far from a perfect parent, but

my kids are seven and nine now and I

514

:

really try hard to validate their feeling.

515

:

Yeah.

516

:

And I think sometimes

with my daughter too, I.

517

:

Especially make note of the fact that

it's okay for her to feel angry because

518

:

I think societally we convey this message

to women that they shouldn't be angry.

519

:

They shouldn't be mad.

520

:

And I try to let my kids feel the feelings

and I try to validate them but also let

521

:

them realize that home is a safe space

for them to share those emotions and.

522

:

It's okay if they don't know

why they're feeling them.

523

:

Sometimes one of my kids will just

have an off day, and sometimes my son

524

:

will just be really frustrated all

day and he can't quite articulate why.

525

:

And so sometimes we just feel

something and it's hard to

526

:

put to words why we feel that.

527

:

Especially when it comes to children,

and so I think just being able to sit

528

:

with kids with those heavy emotions

is really important because it then

529

:

shows them that it's okay to feel

this range of emotions and that one

530

:

emotion is not better than the other.

531

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That's such a good point.

532

:

I think we have a range of emotions.

533

:

They're not good or bad.

534

:

They just are, anger can be very useful,

but I'm gonna say it's not just kids.

535

:

We can all have days where we're just

a little off and not possibly know why.

536

:

And just allowing you or letting children

know that it's okay, but acknowledge it.

537

:

And then just try to let it go.

538

:

But for so long you're a child,

you go outside to get on your bike,

539

:

you fall, you go inside crying.

540

:

They're there.

541

:

Okay, sit down, have a cookie.

542

:

Okay.

543

:

Oh, they're there.

544

:

I'll turn on your favorite cartoons.

545

:

Or let's go get you a toy.

546

:

Or why can't you just

say oh, that's awful.

547

:

Oh are you done feeling that now?

548

:

Are you starting to feel a little better?

549

:

That's a much better way to handle it

than supplant whatever they're feeling.

550

:

Oh, I'm sad.

551

:

Get me a cookie or, I'm hurt.

552

:

Give me my best show.

553

:

It's such a, it's such an odd trade off.

554

:

Instead of teaching them, how

to deal with the emotions.

555

:

And I've said this before in, in

different conversations, but if you

556

:

watch Gazelle's or Zebra or whatever

there in herds and the whole herd, there

557

:

are those on the periphery that are

watching for danger as the lions are.

558

:

Always ready to eat right.

559

:

And all of a sudden they'll get a wind

of something and let everybody else know.

560

:

And they all run hell

for leather and gone.

561

:

They're all gone.

562

:

And then they get to a place where the

outriders have decided that this is safe.

563

:

And if you watch them, every

single animal from tip of the

564

:

nose to the tail, they shimmy.

565

:

That's getting rid of those

feelings, those emotions, they're

566

:

letting it flow and go, yes.

567

:

And then they just go back to

grazing or whatever they're doing,

568

:

and they don't have it all pent up.

569

:

We get everything.

570

:

We save it up, especially when

we're told, oh, don't be sad, or,

571

:

oh, don't be angry or, oh it can't

hurt anymore, which is not true.

572

:

Okay, yes it can,

573

:

but all of those things that you're

told to just bottle stuff up and then

574

:

they wonder why you get to be adults.

575

:

And adults explode all over the place.

576

:

Yeah, like over pop popcorn.

577

:

If you put that much pressure.

578

:

Over time, something's gonna explode.

579

:

And

580

:

again, if we just talked about

it and explained when we are

581

:

young humans, that it's okay.

582

:

And not everybody is even keel every day.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

None of us, not very often.

585

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: I know

it reminds me too, of just the

586

:

importance of talking about our

feelings and our imperfections, right?

587

:

Because I think sometimes too, we are

afraid to go there because we don't

588

:

wanna admit to any mistakes we've made,

or we don't want to admit to something

589

:

maybe that we're not as good at, or

we don't want to admit that we're

590

:

having a tough time in our recovery.

591

:

And so I think.

592

:

Similar to the ways in which we need

to feel more comfortable sharing our

593

:

emotions, I think we also need to

create more spaces for people to share

594

:

the imperfections of mental health,

struggles, recovery, whatever it might be.

595

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Yeah,

totally agree with you and sometimes

596

:

I think it's really good to check

in with the people I say in your

597

:

tribe, but the people close to you.

598

:

Yeah.

599

:

Okay.

600

:

I asked how you were and you said,

fine, but it didn't sound fine.

601

:

How are you really?

602

:

And then just be ready to actually listen.

603

:

Because I find that we're always so

ready to offer help, to tell them

604

:

how to fix it, to change what's

going on, instead of just listening.

605

:

If you talk to young people

and kids when they want you to

606

:

listen, you just want your ears.

607

:

So I have said to my grandkids and a few

other people, I, you matter to me so much.

608

:

I will listen.

609

:

I will duct tape my mouth so that all I

can do is listen, if that's what it takes

610

:

for you to feel safe enough to talk.

611

:

And so I always go to

bent humor for everything.

612

:

It's who I am, but I really,

truly mean it because sometimes.

613

:

People need that safety of knowing

you are not gonna try and fix it.

614

:

You are not gonna give

them 42 other things to do.

615

:

They just wanna be seen and heard.

616

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes.

617

:

And sometimes your presence and

your ears are just what they need.

618

:

And I think, yeah, just having someone

to listen can make all the difference.

619

:

And I think too, I've come to

really appreciate people who listen,

620

:

but then who also share their own

vulnerabilities with me because

621

:

then it makes me feel less alone.

622

:

And it also helps me to feel like

I can trust that person because

623

:

they're willing to go there.

624

:

They're willing to share their own

struggles, not in the sense that they

625

:

divert all the attention away and

put it on them, but that they want to

626

:

have this be a back and forth where

you can feel comfortable talking

627

:

and sharing and you feel less alone.

628

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: And that there

is, the crux is feeling less alone knowing

629

:

that there's that camaraderie that, oh

wow, yeah, I fallen in a puddle too.

630

:

Like that has happened.

631

:

And that is, I think that is reinforcing

that you are truly there for them.

632

:

Unlike when you immediately go to fix

it or tell them to change the subject

633

:

or when are you gonna get over this?

634

:

Those kinds of things, which I just

think are so painfully dismissive.

635

:

Yes,

636

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: I agree.

637

:

And yeah, they can leave people feeling

really misunderstood because I think

638

:

there's a lot of accusations that

sometimes happen when you open up.

639

:

And people think why can't

you just get back on track?

640

:

Or Why can't you just make the choice?

641

:

To be better or to do better.

642

:

But of course when it comes to mental

health, it's not about choice alone.

643

:

There's a lot of other

factors that play into it.

644

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

645

:

And it's never that cut and dry.

646

:

We are human by nature.

647

:

We are imperfect.

648

:

And another thing I've often

said, if humans were perfect,

649

:

there'd be two of them.

650

:

Yeah, and there aren't any

species that there are only two

651

:

because there are differences.

652

:

We have our differences, and I think

that's what makes us interested to each

653

:

other.

654

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes, I agree.

655

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: So the

book should be out, you said, August.

656

:

So it comes out August 5th, but

it's available for pre-order

657

:

on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

658

:

And you can pre-order it and

then it'll come to your door.

659

:

Stop August 5th.

660

:

But yeah, then it'll be in bookstores come

August, which will be really exciting.

661

:

Oh my God.

662

:

Yeah.

663

:

You must be so excited.

664

:

We will make sure that all of

Mallory's information is down below

665

:

the podcast and we will also have a

link so you can pre-order the book.

666

:

I'm really looking forward

to reading it for sure.

667

:

I thank you so much for coming

and being our guest today.

668

:

I always ask our guests, do you have one

thing you could leave the audience with?

669

:

Lesson learned, a little tip

you use every day or some

670

:

tweak that you think is useful.

671

:

What?

672

:

What would you like to

leave the audience with?

673

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: That's

such a beautiful question for me.

674

:

I've been thinking a lot about

this concept of more recovery.

675

:

And I think that's really helpful

for people to consider because

676

:

sometimes it's hard to know what

does recovery actually mean?

677

:

What does full recovery look like?

678

:

And so anytime I make a choice that

is in service of my recovery, I think,

679

:

oh, there's more recovery, right?

680

:

And more recovery might mean 1%.

681

:

One day it might mean 6% the next day.

682

:

It can be hard to quantify, but.

683

:

I think it's important to recognize

those little moments when we have

684

:

chosen more recovery for ourselves,

because over time that will lead to

685

:

something bigger and greater, and so

recognizing those little tiny moments

686

:

along the way I think can help us

to feel like we're making progress.

687

:

Even if we've just put one foot in

front of the other on a particular day.

688

:

So aiming for more recovery is something

that I'd love for listeners to think

689

:

more about, and it's been helpful for me.

690

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna:

That's absolutely beautiful.

691

:

I love that I, something

along those lines.

692

:

I think my spiritual advisor

said, we are like onions.

693

:

There's always a little

more to unpack and I think.

694

:

If we maintain our curiosity, then

more recovery is always possible.

695

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yeah.

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

And it suggests this idea that

it's something that you can keep

698

:

working at and something that can

actually be a moment of growth.

699

:

I think sometimes we think,

700

:

. This is a slog, like I'm gonna be dealing

with this for the rest of my life.

701

:

But in some ways, if you think about

it from a standpoint of curiosity

702

:

and growth, you can think no, this is

something I get to continue learning from

703

:

and I can keep growing as a person if I

keep aiming for more of this recovery.

704

:

So I tend to think of it in that way, and

it feels like a lighter load in some ways.

705

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: See.

706

:

I love that.

707

:

I believe.

708

:

I look for 1% better every day.

709

:

I wanna learn something.

710

:

Every single day.

711

:

And some days it's pretty

bizarre, but it's learning.

712

:

Mallory Tenore Tarpley: Yes.

713

:

It's all important.

714

:

Elaine @TheDarkPollyanna: Absolutely.

715

:

I thank you so much, Mallory, for coming

and joining us today, and as I said, we'll

716

:

make sure everything is available below.

717

:

In the meantime, as per usual,

make the very best of your today.

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every, day.

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Voiceover: Thank you for being

here for another inspiring episode

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of Suicide Zen Forgiveness.

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We appreciate you tuning in.

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Please subscribe and download on your

favorite service and check out S'S

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YouTube channel or Facebook community.

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If you have the chance to leave

a five star rating or review,

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it'd be greatly appreciated.

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Please refer this to a friend you

know who may benefit from the hope

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and inspiration from our guests.

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Suicide Zen Forgiveness was brought

to you by the following sponsors.

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TROOL social media, the digital

integration specialists.

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Let them get you rocking page

one in the search results.

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Canada's keynote, humorous, Judy Croon,

motivational speaker, comedian, author,

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and standup coach at Second City.

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Judy has been involved for over

a decade in the City Street

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Outreach program in Toronto.

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Do you have a story to share?

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Do you know someone you think

would be a great guests?

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Please go to SZF four two.com

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and for our American listeners,

that's s zf four two.com.

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. Thank you for listening and we hope.

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To see you again

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All
Suicide Zen Forgiveness Stories re Suicide Loss | Ideation | Mental Health | Offering Hope |Empathy for All
Shattering Stigma Igniting Hope

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About your host

Profile picture for Elaine Lindsay

Elaine Lindsay

A unique blend of finely tuned chaos with a boatload of compassion. An unfiltered speaker, resilience mentor, and podcast host with 50+ years of lived experience navigating suicidal ideation, Pollyanna’s glad game, trauma, chronic illness, and the power of showing up anyway.

Elaine Lindsay🎤 Speaker | Host | Podcaster | 6x Suicide Loss |@TheDarkPollyanna - Opinionated AF
#Youmatter | Let’s start #ConverSAVEtions

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